paradisaooc | ACTIVITY CHECK DISCUSSION

Right now, the current activity check asks for 2 journal posts to the main community or the equivalent (a post on the journal community along with a log on the logs community, two logs on the log community, a post to the journal community and some number of threads, a post to the log community and some number of threads, a great number of threads and no posts at all). As a note, currently, if all a player's activity for a given character is done in threads without posts to either the journal or log communities, they will find that character listed on the "Activity Check -- Additional Threads for (Month)" posts we make each month. They aren't considered inactive, yet we as mods are not able to track thread activity and thus rely on players to inform us on their thread activity at that time in order to pass them for the AC of any given month.

Knowing this, what do you feel should count as an "equivalent" to one post? How many threads, how many comments? Does a thread on a log count as a full post? What are your thoughts on this?

How long must a thread be before its considered long? How many comments qualify a thread as too short to count for activity? What qualifications should be used to see if a thread counts toward activity? How many comments from a given character, how many comments in total? Should shorter threads be allowed to stack in order to meet a generally agreed upon and approved "length" for threads needed to pass AC? How should thread dropping be viewed, handled, or addressed?

Should any single comment of greater length be considered equivalent to several shorter tags? Should all comments be counted as the same regardless of length of comment, or time spent authoring said comment? In passing a generally agreed upon thread length, should any consideration be shown toward comment depth and breadth if a thread isn't hitting length, but is hitting material played? The mods recognize that a series of short responses, such as "yes, no, maybe, shut up, go away I hate you, oh my god where is the cake" can stack into a thread twenty comments long fairly quickly, where more intense, introspective, or dialog/emotion heavy comments can get up to ten over a longer period of time. Should there be any consideration granted to the difference between these types of comments when looking at the length of a thread being used for proof of activity?

These are previous AC threads that you, the mods, declared SAFE with these combinations prior to this current AC that we are now debating:

post + log combos
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3089553.html?thread=83367825#t83367825
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3149052.html?thread=85315580#t85315580
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3187749.html?thread=86333989#t86333989
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3018341.html?thread=81128037#t81128037
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3360423.html?thread=90456999#t90456999
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3420097.html?thread=91828161#t91828161
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3420097.html?thread=91828417#t91828417
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3464392.html?thread=92524488#t92524488

log x2 combos
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3464392.html?thread=92522696#t92522696
http://paradisaooc.livejournal.com/3464392.html?thread=92524488#t92524488

I see people like Lance Sweets who fit the precendents I have presented above as evidence that activity like this meant a player, and that character, were safe for AC. Now you, the mods, have essentially thrown these precedences out of the window and established a new AC that us, the players, were not informed of whatsoever. I find it to be ridiculous that such a change would happen with no heads up beforehand, especially when it is known that activity is one of the big Red Buttons with this roleplay group and the players within it.

Seriously, why does the logs community even exist if the logs do not count as sufficient activity? Why does a log with 100+ comments (http://paradisalogs.livejournal.com/687748.html#comments) not count as successful activity, while an open post on the main community that had tags, but the player of the post never tags back to those comments (http://paradisa.livejournal.com/13674861.html), count as successful activity?

And then you have this in the Paradisa Wiki: If characters do not meet the two required journal entries per month, they may also make up for it with a 3rd person RP log posted in the Paradisa Logs community. Each log posted is worth the same as one journal entry for each character involved. There, bare bones, no questions asked. You made a log, you were safe. As I have shown above, logs, no matter how many were done, meant you were safe. I'm sorry, but your conveniently new and unannounced interpretation of logs is not fair to the players at all.

Edited 2011-10-01 22:02 (UTC)

Due to the size of this game, it is difficult if not impossible for the mods to find all activity every character has. Consequently posts such as the "Activity Check -- Additional Threads for (Month)" are made each month in order to allow players to inform the mods of activity their character has had that has slipped by under the radar of the mods. This post is never meant as a penalization, and is instead meant to reward players with passes and no marks on their AC records by allowing them to demonstrate and share their character's activity.

Do you like the current compromise of having to post threads to the "Activity Check -- Additional Threads for (Month)" post in order to make sure you are recognized with activity for any given character? Would you prefer a different system, such as one where players submit activity they want counted to the mods each month, and those submissions are looked over and passed or requests for further activity are made?

For example, would you like a permanent activity post where you reply each month to a comment with your character's name, filling out their AC for that month?

In another example, would you like an AC post made to the OOC community each month, where players are asked to respond to that post with each character's activity for the month?

Are there other systems you can think of which you feel would better work for this community and/or ensuring people feel recognized as active? There is only so much the staff can do when it comes to tracking activity. How do you feel improvements can be made, and what suggestions to those ends come to mind?

Should it be counted as a comment thread, like the threads on the main community? Should there be a separate set of qualifications for determining length and quality of log threads? Should a thread on a log thread alone be able to count as a post? "If a thread in a log is to count as the equivalent to a closed post between X number of characters, how many comments does an individual character need to make in order for said thread to "meet" AC requirements for a post? 5 comments? 7? 10? What about thread dropping in log threads? Should people be allowed to add log threads together in order to meet the equivalent of one post, even if those threads are in separate logs, and are not long enough on their own?"

I think it should be done as it has always been done, with journal threads counting for the poster, and logs counting for everyone who participates and thus adds their character tag to them.

Personally, I feel action spam journal entries should not be allowed (but that won't happen, so), particularly when they are "joint threads" which really belong in the logs community.

We definitely don't want to be unfair or surprise the players in the future, which is why we're asking now to discuss what you feel would be a good, new alternative that we can all agree (or at least compromise) on.

Can I take this comment to be a vote for counting any participation in a log to equal a post? Or do you have a different suggestion as to how we can count these things in the future?

+1-ing dis

I want my comment to be a vote for log participation to be counted as a post, as it has always been in the past prior to now.

+1ing as well. This has always worked in the past. Why fix what's not broken?

I had always thought that the posters of a log should get the credit--because it's the same as the poster of an entry in the main comm. In joint posts both posters get credit an in joint logs both posters get credit. I never saw as having commentors to an entry as need for adding a character tag to an entry--so I never really understood why people who didn't post a log in the comm would add their character tag to it. It's not their entry after all.

All comments to all posts should get credit I agree, but I don't see why adding a character tag when you comment to a log equals a post when we don't do the same thing in the main comm?

I'll admit right now that I am not in charge of AC and I do not participate monthly in the checks. This is just my two cents as a player--ever since I joined in 2009 this is how I thought things were done.

But obviously other people have interpreted things differently than me so I wanna ask: what do you think counts as a post? Specifically for logs--what's different about a comment to an entry and a comment to a log? Why should a comment to a log (when it's open, not a joint log) count as more AC than a comment to an entry? Or if it even does at all! I wanna know what you think :o

+1.

Can I ask, then, if there's any sort of limits you'd put on looking at participation in a log? For example, do you feel it's fair for someone who maybe commented 3 times to have that count as a post, the same as someone who commented 50+ times?

Actually, I kind of agree that it would make more sense for action stuff to be in the logs comm, but on the other side of it, it's a quicker and easier way for a lot of people to thread, so it probably won't go away, yeah. :(

What would you define as a "joint thread", exactly? I'm guessing you mean an action post where people are meeting up?

+1

Prose takes more time and effort, and I don't see why it shouldn't count as AC for everyone involved.

Speaking with an honest bias, I would love love love to have a permanent AC post where we go to comment with character activity for each month. Whatever ends up being decided to count as proper AC, and proper equivalents, I know I'd be happy and willing to tally up what I need to and comment for each character in a permanent AC post.

I favor permanent over monthly posts asking for responses to show activity on more a personal level of then being able to track activity in a general sense for each character -- you end up with a log of activity for a character, and I find that intriguing and useful for me.

My biggest point of confusion is this: What makes the logs comm so different from the main comm?

In the main comm, if someone makes an open post, the poster gets credit for the preliminary activity check. Anyone that comments to that post is welcome to use it as activity should they need to supplement their activity in the "Additional Threads" post. The only person tagged on that entry is the initial poster, and perhaps anyone else that speaks/acts in that initial post.

What makes the logs community different? From what I am seeing, people feel that if they reply to an open log that they did not post, that they should be able to place their character's tag on it and that it should count as a post for them, even though they did not initially post it.

If it's not allowed/accepted on the main community, why is it acceptable in the logs community?

I really appreciate that you are willing to open this up for discussion - but the fact of the matter is that we have always talked about this. I can go back through the How's the Game posts that have all been put up in this game. I can look at every single post that has been brought up with these situations and there is always, always going to be different replies from different people.

The thought that you can determine a specific number/quantity/quality of what a member of this game submits to count toward activity is sort of upsetting.

We applied to be in the game. We understood at the time of our application and acceptance what was expected of us was just a simple two-count activity. Do two things a month and you're welcome to play with us in our world.

Your two things, from the day I first joined this game back in June of 2008 was either two journal entries or two times you participated in a log (or any combination of those two).

Even when I was a mod and activity was brought up, we further clarified it so that hiatuses were no longer "indefinite" and so that the activity was more clear as to how you could make up your activity because there was no way that we could figure out how much was enough.

By asking us to put down these further stipulations of "What a tag is" and "what a log tag is" and "what is a good quality tag" - you are removing the fun from what I thought was meant to be a game.

I understand that this is a large game and it's difficult to keep everyone active, but Paradisa is by no means a failing community. If people have issues with a player's activity not being enough, or that threads are being dropped, aren't we supposed to feel comfortable approaching a mod so that it can be discussed?

Putting all of these questions up here just makes me wonder why I am even trying to stay in the game.

Okay, cool.

But can I ask you the same question I asked Brain, then? Do you think there's any sort of limits you'd put on looking at participation in a log? Do you feel it's fair for someone who maybe commented 3 times to have that count as a post, the same as someone who commented 50+ times?

Honestly? I'm tired of you guys being Big Brother and keeping lists of everything we do.

I vote we go back to the old system because this is getting to be too much of a headache. Two posts is AC, Logs count as posts regardless of if you posted it or not. As long as your name is on the tag and you commented into it, you're good. If you didn't make two posts or were involved in a log- post threads to make up for that.

If people have issues with character squatters among their castmates or CR, talk to them. If they don't listen, then go to the mods. Because honestly every person and casts has their own definition of character squatting. Some people really like active casts, meanwhile I rather take an inactive castmate that I only thread with occasionally over having to get new ones every other month.

I like this. The sheer size of the game, I can't even begin to imagine how many tags the mods need to go through. If we need to just update something ourselves it'll take 5 mins for us, and maybe make it better for you modlings.

From past experience, logs tend to move slower. I really don't like the idea of there having to be a set # of comments to make a log count. Really, if they haven't dropped the thread (no commenting for one or two weeks after the last tag), and if they've at least done somethingI think it should count.

I don't even like the idea of making mods look to see if it's been dropped, but I understand that other players might be upset if someone's commented 3 times and just abandoned it. So...I think 3 vs. 50 is fine, as long as the player is still actively trying to be part of the thread.

I think the difference is that logs generally are not open and they usually stick to prose. I know my log tags take a hell of a lot longer than my actionspam ones because I'm adding more detail. So all participants get credit, the same way multiple players get tags in a joint post in the main comm.

Open logs are a bit different, but I hardly ever see them here.

I'm not talking for everyone, but when it comes to logs for me they tend to be something agreed to by both parties and worked on equally as hard, more time going into each post. The comm posts are more first person, and mostly on the fly if that makes sense.

I think the general idea is to hammer down some specifics so that things don't get misinterpreted, like they did today - which really sucks, and I'm sorry for that.

If people don't WANT to try and quantify/qualify/etc the comments themselves, then that's fine too -- just let us know what you think! (Which I guess is what you did here, so thank you for that.)

I have heard some people mention that they don't like being unsure about "how much is enough" - and so that's why those questions are there. If people don't want us to monitor the issue of not having enough activity outside the basics, or thread dropping - then please tell us. But we've received so many complaints about castmates scraping by and their threads being constantly dropped by a person (over months - months where they were not having fun because of this issue) that in the interest of making sure everyone is having fun, we have tried to keep a better eye on things.

It is a game - and I want it to be fun for everyone. But it isn't fun when people are getting misled and upset over miscommunications and that's why I'm hoping to get down, in clear terms, what people would like to see in the activity check, how it's handled, etc.

ACTIVITY CHECK DISCUSSION

WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD COUNT FOR A POST?

WHAT SHOULD CONSTITUTE THREAD SIZE?

WHAT SHOULD CONSTITUTE THREAD QUALITY?

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HOW MUCH SHOULD THE MODS/PLAYERS BE RESPONSIBLE FOR?

HOW SHOULD A THREAD ON A LOG BE JUDGED?

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perm ac post + player accountability

MAIN COMM VS. LOGS COMM

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Re: MAIN COMM VS. LOGS COMM

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